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www.irr.org/mit/bom-bible.html
www.irr.org/mit/boc/
(this is the page where you can view the scanned images of the 1833 book of mormon which has changed over the years from its original text to what we have today. There are two revisions to the original text of which I found incredibly interesting.
If one looks up the original use of the Urim and Thumim it was two sones.. one black one white. They were worn on the priests robes during the times of Moses.. When ppl came to them with questions, the stones were used to answer either yes(white) or no(black) they were not used in translation of any thing...
There is also now documented scientific proof that the lamanites did not become the modern day Indians. The indians came from other dna places..LOL Dna has not shown where the lamanites have stemmed from as yet;. but their working on it.. so this is another discrepancy..
www.irr.org/mit/boc/
(this is the page where you can view the scanned images of the 1833 book of mormon which has changed over the years from its original text to what we have today. There are two revisions to the original text of which I found incredibly interesting.
If one looks up the original use of the Urim and Thumim it was two sones.. one black one white. They were worn on the priests robes during the times of Moses.. When ppl came to them with questions, the stones were used to answer either yes(white) or no(black) they were not used in translation of any thing...
There is also now documented scientific proof that the lamanites did not become the modern day Indians. The indians came from other dna places..LOL Dna has not shown where the lamanites have stemmed from as yet;. but their working on it.. so this is another discrepancy..
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Re: Book of mormon.
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 9:49 AMyou're being unfair, and biased.
do you go out of your way to point it out every time one of the storeys of the quaran are caled into question over a technicality that is meaningless to the actual doctrine of ther religion?
let me guess , it never occurred to you to point out that not dna or fossil evidence has been found to support the existence of the Hindu gods Ganesha or Kali?
you should believe or not believe whatever makes your life better.
but why on earth would you intentionally revel in the erosion of someone elses solis? -
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Re: Book of mormon.
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 12:36 PMStarbuck, I only point out what is being revealed. If you choose to believe everything that the Book of Mormon states then so be it.
I'm not here to challenge your religion or your faith. If your faith is solid then nothing I post will shake it. As to the Hindi and Ganesha gods, I could care less. They have no relevance to the LDS faith or Christianity in general.
I read an article that was interesting, brought up some good points and posted it. If it offends you so be it. I make no appologies for my personal reading material.
As to being unfair and biased I see no relavance here. You may click on the link or not according to your preference and you may agree or disagree with the information on the websight according to your choice.
It is for information only. It was not meant as combative or confrontational posting in order to target one's belief or faith.. I sincerely believe that if your belief in God and your faith in your choice of church is strong, then nothing should shake it. or even make it waver. -
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Re: Book of mormon.
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 8:18 PMfaith in your choice of church is strong, then nothing should shake it. or even make it waver.
that is a completly unrealistic statment, your just making an excuse for picing at somone elses belifes. thats like the school yard bully who say "well if she realy thinks she's god looking then it shouldn't mater if i call her fat." -
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Re: Book of mormon.
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 8:43 PMif the only way that you can bolster your own faith in what you belive is to ter down what another person believes, or if you amuse your self by publicly selibrating somone elses problems, that makes you a bully.
please don't be that way. it's meen, regardless of witch "side" of the issue you are on.
live and let live, love and let love.
just to be clear if somone else was speaking derisivly or disparagingly about your belifs i would be saying the same thing to them.
it's just meen.
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Re: Book of mormon.
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 11:52 PMStar, your belief in the mormon church is not strong, if it was strong you would not be here, chatting with us. We are all just people trying to figure out what happened in our lives, and how so much energy and time has been given to a religion that does not give back what it takes.
no one is attacking you, I have thought the things you have thought, defended the mormon faith, and even believed in a man named Joseph Smith.
part of me wishes that I had people around me, or at least be able to talk to people that could have helped my departure of the mormon faith. I of course refused to even look at anything anti mormon until just a couple of years ago.
a good test for me about the mormon church is:would I ever let my kids be inolved with the mormon church and the people involved?
Looking back on the lack of training bishops have, along with the possibility of serious abuse occuring, I question whether its a good place for the family. It leaves a sour taste in my mouth just thinking about a creative child molester up in a high office of the church...
Next question is, is this just a isolated thing, or is abuse in the core of the mormon church?
well, Joseph smith's youngest wife was 14, and it was not common in that day and age in navuo or illinois, -
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Re: Book of mormon.
Sat, July 12, 2008 - 12:01 AMStar, your belief in the mormon church is not strong, if it was strong you would not be here, chatting with us.
fuck you justin. -
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Re: Book of mormon.
Sat, July 12, 2008 - 2:27 AMi'm not here becals i'm mormon,
i'm not talking to you becals of my belief in the mormon religion.
and i'm not going to leave just becals somone thinks i don't belong here .
i've been sincere and honest and understanding with you, and i've been trying not to push or pull you, or undermine your opinions or your religiuos belifes, if they work for you then that is great for you.
if you think you know your path than walk it, but it's rong to try to undermine somone elses path.
i know exactly who and what i am, and i'm danm proud of it. has t siriusly not ocured to you that maybe you wer on the rong path befoire? and that you in particular wer ment for somthing difrent, and that the reason the peaple you wer around wer rong was becals they wer trying to force you to undermine your true path? and more importantly, has it not ocured to you that thats what you're doing to me rite now?
i don't hide behind arbitrary bias and i don't pretend that any way of life that dosn't work for me is rong, and one of the few times i will forget about budha and tell somone to fuck off is when they are acting that way them selfs. i don't think you are trying to be a close minded one way, "my path is the only way and if you are anything but a steriotype of what i think a person on that other path should be then i must convince you to change, and reveal to you the deep secret that i am right and you are rong" but dude, thats how you are coming off.
it sounds to me like you kept somthing from your time in the church, it sounds to me like you kept one of the worst falts that member of the church can have, it sounds like you are stuck on the idea that your way is the only way and that anyone that is difrent than your prconseeved steriotype of what a mormon should be sdosn't belong in the church.
it sounds to me like you are what you clame to hate.
and if we had gone to church together when you wer still a mormon i think i would have liked you a lot, i also think that if i know any mormons who act the way that you do now only they acted that way in favor of the lds church i would not get along with them very well and probubly spend a lot of time arguing with them.
don't get me rong, if you find somone who is trying to be happy outside of the church then awsome, help them with that, but when you start fucking with peaple who are asking you to stop fucking with them, thats when you're just being a one way mutherfucker.
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Re: Book of mormon.
Sat, July 12, 2008 - 9:13 PMStar:>>it sounds to me like you are what you clame to hate.
Yeah, thats some of the tricky stuff of being raised mormon, lol!
I also don't want you to leave,
One of the weird things about chatting about mormon stuff is that eventually the logic of the mormon faith comes back to some issues with logic. all i have to do is keep talking to someone that is mormon and holes in the logical explanation of certain things come up.
I am by the way, no expert debater, nor is this some cunning thing that is invisible to others. I also don't have one complete faith or set of beliefs, I don't have an f-in clue as to what I believe. its taken me a long time to get to this point.
I left the mormon church because my feelings told me there was something wrong with the life I was leading. I would never even use the lord's name in vain for years because some part of me was afriad that the Mormon God would punish me for the way I was living.
Well Joseph smith me!! Holy mother Frickin' Joseph Smith!!! What a dumb a', Mitt romney!!
wow, that was fun!!
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Re: Book of mormon.
Mon, December 1, 2008 - 8:08 AMHi Justin,
Know that anything I say here, is said with love for all involved.
You are right that generally the LDS rank and file don't come here. But its not because their faith is so strong that they don't want to come talk to you. It's that you keeping showing up looking to befriend those who want to leave the church, of which I've not seen a single successful case of. You seem to be trying to spread seeds of doubt. Now don't get me wrong, I appreciate your befriending nature, but wouldn't your efforts be of better service on an anti-LDS site where those people wanting and searching for support might be looking?
As we've discussed before, I do not believe this to be an anti-LDS tribe.
Not to diminish your feelings and reasons for leaving the church, yours is but one experience in the church and regrettably there are many like you who feel they've been wronged by the church. But there are many, many more who receive so much good by being a member of the church, myself included. I bet if you were to seek out the bishop of your local ward, he could help you with the healing process and provide you with greater understanding of the reasons behind the trials that you've been put through.
Gypsy, as far as DNA evidence goes, there are new articles all the time going back and forth about the issue. Not to long ago scientists who had been positive that the Native Americans had descended from those ancestors who had come across the land bridge from modern day Russia, found some fossils that completely blew that theory. My point being that science is anything but absolute truth and should always be taken with a grain of salt.
As far as the Book of Mormon goes, its not unusual for religious texts to be refined over time. A well known example is that the Bible didn't hit its present form until 500 years after Christ's death.
Starbuck, why do you have to break out the profanity?
My best wishes, sincerely, to all of you. -
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Re: Book of Mormon.
Tue, December 2, 2008 - 2:17 AMThe Book of Mormon is what ever it is. Either it's a History book, or another greatly written fiction?
But whatever it is, it has nothing to do with Oz (Australia). Thus has no place down here!
One of the things that make oz a much better place to live than 99.9% of the USA. Our founding forefathers were not religious fanatics. Oz is not the birth place of many religious cults as the USA is. Yet these religions / cults feel they have a right to invade Oz, and force their ways down here. They come uninvited.
Please go, and leave us alone! -
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Re: Book of Mormon.
Tue, December 2, 2008 - 11:43 AMPattison, why do you refer to Australia as OZ? I was just curious. -
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Re: Book of Mormon.
Tue, December 2, 2008 - 1:53 PMRe: pattison why do you refer to Australia as OZ?
It's what I have growen up to know. I am an Aussie living in Oz, and not an Australian living in Oz. Australia has been known as Oz for a long time, as we have Aussies who live here, and I'm one of em.
Not all born to Australia are Aussies, as this would dilute, and deprive me of My heritage to Australia, as an Aussie.
My family come to Oz 200 years ago, from Switzerland, this year. We come as pioneers, and not immigrants. We come when there was no infrastructure, like the aboriginals did.
I am a boy from Oz, I am a true Blue Aussie. True Blue down here means the real thing.
Oh Mel Gibson, and Nicole Kidman are not, and never have been Aussies, as they both are American Born, and an American Born can never be an Aussie!
Oh I believes (from my time spent in Utah) many Swiss, also moved to Utah under the dictatorship of Brigham Young, and he sent them down to St George, as pioneers too also settle the region. So many folk in St George, have a swiss pioneering background like myself, but they are not Aussies
! But maybe Uterines?
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Re: Book of Mormon.
Tue, December 2, 2008 - 2:09 PMGyps. Did you ever see South Park when they did the skit on Mr J Smith, and his translation of the Book of Mormon? Dum dum dum dum.
Surly if the translation come from God, the text would of been perfect, and not need to be re written by latter generations. It would of stood the test of time. But it has not! One of the things the LDS are becoming well known for, is their ability too re-write history.
You would think that the FLDS, are a break away group from the Original members. But in fact they are in so many ways, as the church was, on Mr J. Smiths death. It was the member who followed Mr Young, who become the breakaways, and are today known as LDS. mainstream. What a great job they have done of reinventing themselves, and integrating into mainstream America. How looks can be deceiving.
But as I told the sistors, whom come to my home not long ago. When asked do I belive the Book of Mormon is true/ I just told em. The fact that the Bible is not. Makes it imposible for the Book of Mormon to be so. Even if it was. It has nothing to do with Oz, or Australia, thus no place here. Even the Russians have said, we don't want your book, or Cult here. But the nobs in Utah ignor their wish, and invaded Russia. So Missonarys have been kidnaped. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Book of Mormon.
Tue, December 2, 2008 - 6:52 PMI don't watch South Park. I don't have a tv with any more capability then runing DVD's or playing video tapes. We do not have satalite or cable. In fact where I live, cable is not an option.
I have another question if you would be so patient with me. I am interested, since you discredit the Bible from being true as well as the Book of Mormon, what is it that you do believe in?
I truly am intrigued by some of your answers. Do you believe as the aboriginals do?
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Re: Book of Mormon.
Wed, December 3, 2008 - 10:04 PMGyps. Thats OK I don't watch South Park much at all, but it's one of the few I seen, plus one of the writers is an ex LDS.
I'm a patient person. It has a lot to do with, why I went to chuch for so many years, until I knew it was either true or not.
My belief system. It's been in the making all my life, and still under construction.
I don't belive in the Bible, as I feel the Big bang is more realistic than Adam and Eve, and the garden of Edan. The world was not made in 6 days, as it is still storming and forming; Hawaii is living proof to that. So if the Bible is not true, and there may of been a man named Jesus who did good things, but he was only a mortal, and not the child of a sprite. Thus when he died, he become compost, and did not go and walk on the Americas.
But there is something, and this is whats still under construction. The brain is a marvelous working muscle, that still to this day, we still don't know how it 100% works. it has abilities we don't understand. So I can understand, how a thousand yeas ago, people come to the conclusion there must be a god.
Example: Being a survivor of torture as a child, it was tuff. The struggles I had to endure. when I was in my mid 20, I started to get truly bad pain in my joints. This was in the 80's when Oz was in a recession, so I lost my job, and lived in the bush where work was not in abundance.
One day I got home, with truly heavy feet. I had had enough of life. I feel to my knees, and begged for help, to whatever. I said if my life was like this at 40. I'm so turning the lights out. I gave life about 10 yeas, to change. I'd already been working at it all my life. I asked for love and security.
I few days latter. I knew I would have both, but not together. I've never herd a voice, it's just something I knew. Just as I used to wish on a star, and ask for my soul mate. Where is he. Can I meet him, if he is a long way away, so I know who he is. and one day I just knew he was in Russia, and one day we would meet. This was 1989. I did not know it would not be until 1999, that we got to meet.
I also knew I had to move to Melbourne, and away from the bush to get work, and I said I did not now how I was going to be able to live in the city, and study to, to get work. I just knew it would work out. Well I come to melbourne to find a flat, and I meet an American. I did not know it then, but my life just changed.
So to cut a long story. I moved to melbourne, went to school, and in time got work, and without any struggle. Life was being kind to me. But I did not know how this Russian was going to fit into my life.
In 1999. We met, and truly enjoyed our time together, and I already knew things about him, that got his attension, as it was imposible for me to of known them. I was so happy and content. I was secure in my life, and now in love too. I was the happiest I had ever been.
Then one day my world fell all around me, and it took many years to get over it. he told me just a few day before Mothers day, that he would be back home in Russia for Mothers day, for good. I went into shock I think. My world just fell all around me,and I did not want him to go. But More important. I did not want him to forget me either.
I wanted him to know all I had told him was true. Funny he already did. How I remember looking at the sun, and it was so big and low, and even walks in the park were stopping to look at it and going wow. I talked to him about things, that were yet to come. all around my Birthday. The first was of that year of 1999. i told him a bulding in Moscow was going to be blown up, and I said the same for the next year, and he was like oh no, pulse the City goes into lock down.
Then I got to my 40th B'day of 2001. he said to me oh no, please no more for my country. i told him oh no, not this time. next time will be in the USA. I talked about New York. I just seen this building just fall in my head, just fall. i asked of him what would do that. he said a bomb.
I said: No to low. but we moved on. I told him oh, America will know this as September the 11th. But to me it will be my 40th B'day. The 12th, and when I awaken on my 40th B'day. The world would of changed.
Well I talked on the net, how the world was going to change on my 40th B'day, and we should have international beer drinking day on that day, as everyone will need a drink. You can imagen all the ridicule I received. But I would not back down.
I also had an incident where I had to take me employer to Equal opportunity. I got the cheque, so after we had a meeting, to resolve things. The company were upset about loosing. The big boss said to me: pattison I find it so hard to belive you. I flipped as I had not lied. So I said: I'll give yo something hard to belive. I told here what was to come to pass on my 40th B'day. and stated There will be no B'day party, no cards nothing. She said. You are being foolish to give up gifts. No interest, no part was my reply. told her. i was sorry she had to wait until next year to see I was being truthful.
September the 11th 2001. I was on holidays, and it was a grand Spring day down here. I was having a drink, and my boss called to see if I was doing anything the next day. i said NO! I did not either. When I went to bed on 11.09.2001. The world was the same.
But........when I awoke on my 40tj B'day, on the 12th. America was on it knees, and the world was in shock. The world had changed. All I said had come to pass, and my man in Russia was numb from shock. When I left this job. They gave me almost 20 grand, to say sorry,and that shocked many.
So from my time as an LDS. I know this is the job of the president, of the church, and not a little homosexual priest like I. So this really was the beging of the end for me being religus. I don't recall the Pope, the LDS President, no religus leader warning the world, of what was to come. yet I first talked about it, in may of 1999.
But yet this is an ability I had from a young child. I just wish I knew how it worked. Oh a lot of religus people would try to tell me, that because I'm a fag. it was the workings of the devil. I roll my eyes.
So what I belive in, is still under construction. But it has nothing to do with religion!!!!
Now for the Aboriginal Dream Time. Now from what I just talked about, there may well be something in it. But I don't get into all of it, and it has nothing to do with religion either.
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Re: Book of mormon.
Wed, December 3, 2008 - 10:22 AMSilent:I bet if you were to seek out the bishop of your local ward, he could help you with the healing process and provide you with greater understanding of the reasons behind the trials that you've been put through.
Justin: If the Bishop had any formal training, maybe that would be a good idea. Bishops, and many other positions in the church have no formal training for the position they are holding. This is a big issue of contention I have with how the mormon faith is run, since incest, molestations, and many forms of physical abuse are possible with the current system of the mormon church heirarchy. A well placed pedophile could have virtually unlimited access to a congregations youth, and a few that group up can create a secrative network.
and as you know, mormons have to keep secrets....
onto the dna stuff, I am going to start another thread.
and by the way, I have helped many people leave the church, the truth sells itself, unlike the mormon faith, that must make a giant web of misdirection and faulty logic in order to convince someone that it is the true faith, and the only true faith.
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Re: Book of mormon.
Sat, August 2, 2008 - 8:07 AMI'm sorry I just don't see why religious people get upset, with people pointing out faults in their choice of religions. Religion is a life style choice, and not an innate one. Well if it was innate, it would not be a choice.
Yet religious people throw stones all the time. My religion is now science. How many christians, and Mormons pick on this, my belief system.
hay now how many wives did Me Smith have. #6 was it? some as young as 14. Not the LDS tries to fob this off as welfare system.
Yer right. He did not have too bed them for this. Fact. We would now call him a slut, or a dirt y man, pedophile.
But I do give him credit for trying to break the restraints of the day. One man, one women.
My right to this view, and too express it. Why should religious people be given special treatment for their life style choice? More rights. -
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Re: Book of mormon.
Mon, August 11, 2008 - 9:33 PMThe polite thing to do (i.e. the right thing in my opinion) would be to point out all the issues you want in tribes that want to read your views. Going into tribes set up for practicing mormons to connect and stirring up trouble (which however you want to slice is exactly your preceived intention) is simply put rude and even possibly mean spirited. -
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Re: Book of mormon.
Thu, August 14, 2008 - 10:17 PMyou are correct that leaving would be the polite thing to do, but this tribe has been anti mormon for quite some time. I remember when I was mormon, I was told to leave if someone was spreading anti-mormon thought or literature. it polutes the mind... is the analogy I remembered.
I guess we all deal with our leaving of the mormon faith differently, until a couple of years ago, I would never take the lords name in vain... good god I am glad I am over that.
Silent, you are here because you wish you could find the courage, or the logic of leaving the faith of mormonism, and somehow replace it with something better.
as some one that was raised in a classic co-dependant mormon family, I had to go join a crazy occult temple to replace the mormon faith in my life. what i really needed is to be without a faith for a while, to not be so sure of everything spiritual. I needed perspective to understand how I could believe so strongly in a faith started by a man with over 30 wives, a few of which were 14.
I may be pissing you off, but come on, I dare you to really think with some logic about what mormonism is, and the horrific effects it has on people... look at the fruit the tree bears, not the shiny limbs. follow the roots, the ones that lead nowhere, or better yet, the roots that simply circle into themselves
the fundamental logic of mormonism can be expressed like this:
a=b=a=b=a
if a is equal to b, the c must be egual to G
heads I win, tails you lose(also known as the catch 22) -
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Re: Book of mormon.
Wed, August 20, 2008 - 7:03 AMJustin,
So by your logic I can go to a professed "anti-mormon" tribe and simply by me posting there it becomes a practicing mormon tribe?
I was not raised in the mormon faith I've done my fair bit of drug experimentation and alcohol among other addictions. I joined the church with my wife, exhibiting great courage in the face of others who would have me continue in the ways of the world. The LDS church has helped with some dramatic changes in my life and the lives of my family.
We are, you and I, never without faith, we simply experience it in different places. You have faith that you won't die today in a car accident, I have that same faith, if we didn't we'd go insane. Belief in science (as an often used example of something opposite religion) is a faith as well.
If you've really moved on then might I make a suggestion, let stuff like this go. It's a great big world out there and there is much to explore and to be fulfilled by. The longer you stay here "coming across as a hater" the longer you delay a true embrace of all the world has to offer.
I hope you find a good place to be in your life where everything works.
SK
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