right on!

You obviously have a gift for putting things in prospective. Your comments were very well put.

Thanks

mich:As for celestial kingdoms, tell you what ... you go where you think you'll experience the most joy. I'll go where I think I'll experience the most joy. Fair enough? You can call wherever you end up anything you wish to call it. If such a place is your "celestial kingdom," fine. I'm happy for you. Do what you want -

Justin Responds:
As an apostate that questions the validity of the mormon faith, and has been ex-communicated, will I go to the celestial kingdom too? and since we are talking, does that mean we will meet in the afterlife?

Wow. Do you mind if I print this out and tape it up where I can read it? I really feel like a shoe sometimes and hope I'll grow and strive to become a worthy child of our Heavenly Parents.

The question is, how badly do you want it and how faithful are you willing to be to get it?

Women qualify for all blessings men qualify for. This is not a two tier system.

Women receive instruction and make covenants in the temple. They are not asked to do any less than their male counterparts. A faithful latter day saint woman is in fact just as eligible as a faithful lds man. Opportunities for entrance into the presence of the Lord are defined and determined by man (or woman's) ability, desire and willingness to honor the covenants made with the Him in the temple (yes names, garments etc), marital status aside.

I should point out that it is my understanding that an unmarried woman has more of a chance of attaining celestial glory than an unmarried man. She may be invited by another p/h holder to cross the veil if she is not called by one who is her own; he, on the other hand, is kind of stuck.

<< Justin Replies: ... (special underwear and secret names and handshakes) can enter ... "sloppy seconds" ... too much of a b***h ... to not pull you into the celestial kingdom. >>

You complained earlier that I didn't take your comments seriously, and this is why. Your disdain of everything I believe in fairly reeks from your comments. I can't help but reason that you are not interested in receiving answers so much as you are in debating and defaming anything associated with the gospel of the Church of Jesus Christ. You seem to delight in mocking the beliefs of those who joined this forum for genuine fellowship, using descriptive language that you well know is quite offensive.

Your language and attitude frankly betray your claim to be "seeking truth."

Nevertheless, not being familiar with your personal history, I suppose I may be in error in so judging your motives.

All questions are capable of answers -- if you really want an answer and not just fodder to continue a debate with someone. It has been my personal experience that cynicism gets you pretty much nowhere with the Lord. If you want honest answers, you have to ask in an honest manner; the Lord, that is, not me -- because ultimately He is the only source we all have. My posts here are nothing more than educated opinions I have arrived at after asking all these same questions you're asking and more.

I'll respond to your comments in a separate post to this thread.

Justin Responds:
< As an apostate that questions the validity of the mormon faith, and has been ex-communicated, will I go to the celestial kingdom too? and since we are talking, does that mean we will meet in the afterlife? >

You will go precisely where you wish to go. If you wish to attain the Celestial Kingdom, then you'll become a celestial being through the decisions and actions you take during this life. The agency is *yours* alone - not someone else's.

Think of it in the same terms you would if you wanted to go party and get stoned. In order to "party" with certain friends, you are expected to socialize and behave in such a manner that is acceptable to the group you have elected to be with. Your speech patterns, verbiage, body language, dress, and etceteras you will modify and adapt to the social group you have chosen to be with. In addition, if you want to get high, it is necessary you partake of your intoxicant of choice; a ritual that if you refuse, you won't be able to experience the desired effect.

You do all these things not because someone forced you to, but because it was what you *desired,* and you simply conformed your behaviour to attain the desired affect. Likewise, nobody on earth or in heaven will force you to the Celestial realms, nor will they by force or fraud keep you from such a glory.

When a friend invites you to a party, he is describing a place and social group you can go and participate with as long as you conform your behavior to the expectations and ability of the group and place they are going to party at. If you show up for a kegger dressed in a suit or evening gown expecting to discuss Mozart and classical music, you are not going to get very far; i.e. you are not very "worthy" of attendance, are you? You can't fly airplanes in the sea, and you can't play football very well on a basketball court.

Likewise, when the Lord invites you to live a celestial glory, it is because he thinks you are capable of being a celestial being. HE NEVER WOULD HAVE EXTENDED THE INVITATION if he didn't think you were able to attend -- no more so than your friend would ever have invited you to a party if he thought you would show up and be a bore. At this "party" there are social norms you will either feel comfortable with or uncomfortable with just as you would at any earthly gathering; in addition you will be required to "partake" of such rituals as baptism in order to fully appreciate the desired effect /affect.

You were excommunicated because you, in effect, replied to such an "invitation," through your actions and behaviour, that you were not interested in "attending" a celestial "party." But that *doesn't* mean you shan't be asked again; it is totally and completely up to you.

You decide. If you don't want to live the life of a celestial being, than you won't be at all happy in the Celestial Kingdom, and that should be good news to you. If you don't like hanging out with well-meaning Mormons in this life, you won't like hanging out with them any more in the next.

Shall we meet there? you asked. Hard to say. We met here, didn't we? At least "virtually," and we belong to quite different social structures and live many hundreds of miles apart.

When I was an enlisted soldier in the Army, I had a friend who was an officer. I was an enlisted physical therapy aid with the rank of private first class, and he was a registered physical therapist with the rank of lieutenant. We were both about the same age - he was only four or five years older than I. The biggest difference between us was that he had graduated college with a six-year degree, and I had dropped out of college. We both joined the Army, and wound up being assigned to Darnall Army Hospital, Fort Hood, Texas.

I saw him everyday at the workplace in the hospital clinic we both worked at. He even invited me to his home one day for supper, since he was married and lived in the officers' housing area, and I was single living in the barracks. But there were events, places, and things he could do or go to that I could not. I could not attend functions at the officers club, or qualify for an officer's billet. I could not perform certain therapy treatments due to to my lack of education and training. I was limited in my scope of abilities based on my own accomplishments prior to joining the military and arriving at Fort Hood. That *didn't* mean I wasn't busy doing work that was both rewarding and necessary.

I think it is highly probable that this same sociality that differentiates the celestial kingdom and the "lower" kingdoms is very similar to the same sociality that differentiates enlisted soldiers from officers in the Army.

When I got off active duty, I joined the National Guard and enrolled in ROTC. In four years I was commissioned a lieutenant in the U.S. Army. I attained the rank of captain before my Gulf War disabilities obliged me to leave the Guard. My point here is that I *chose* to do the things that would allow me to advance to the next "kingdom" (if you will) in the structure of the United States military. I rose from the rank of sergeant in the non-commissioned officer corps (I had been promoted during the interim) to the rank of captain in the medical service corps.

In the same manner, you could change your course as well. The choice is yours. Choose that which gives you the most joy and sense of well-being. It is no one's place to decide that but yourself.

So why are you here?

I will address the male /female thing in the next post to this thread tomorrow. Too late now.